Matt Groening interviewed

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The Future in Futurama. Doh!

Matt Groening, creator of Futurama & the Simpsons, interviewed by 'Big' Jim Pickard. So just what the heck is happening with Futurama, Matt?

JP: Mr Groening, thanks very much for your time. I've been a big fan of yours for many years. My favourite episode was the one with the froghurt.

Groening: Um

JP: You don't remember it?

Futurama Groening: We've done 300 episodes, I can't keep track of them all.

JP: It involved a cursed monkey head which came with a free frozen yoghurt.

Groening: Oh yes, I think I remember, it was probably one of the Halloween ones.

JP: So you're in Bristol this weekend for the animation festival, right?

Groening: Yep, it is really fun because they have asked me to come over and pick the cartoons I would take to a desert island. It's a very strange concept.

JP: You mean you'd rather have a sunhat and toothpaste...

Groening: Exactly, are cartoons one of the things you would really want to take? What I have tried to do is pick a bunch of great cartoons that I enjoy or one the audience might not have seen. I'm not showing any cartoons by Nick Park (the Bristol-based animator of Wallace and Gromit) because I hope everyone has committed them to memory.

JP: Are you a fan of Park?

Groening: I am a big fan, one of the things I'm looking forward to is meeting him.

JP: So what else will you be picking?

Groening: I'm showing a classic Chuck Jones cartoon, it is the animal chase to end all chase cartoons.

JP: Some people in Britain are quite snobbish about the superiority of British humour over American, but in the last decade America seems to have produced the funniest programmes in the world. Would you agree?

Groening: I'm a big fan of British humour, going back to Punch magazine which I grew up reading, the Goon Show and Monty Python, and Spike Milligan.

JP: They are all quite old though...

Groening: I also like the League of Gentlemen. I think with American humour we have become more sophisticated lately, that sophistication has been driven by David Letterman and Saturday Night Live in the last decade, I think that there is a great range of points of view these days. That's what makes great humour work, the rigidly held point of view that I don't have to agree with, even right wing.

JP: You received lots of criticism in the early days of The Simpsons...

Groening: That may have been true in the early 90s but the show is so popular now that we can do very little to get in trouble, and when we do it is always completely unexpected. We had one show where Homer gets a prescription for marijuana after being attacked by crows and being in great pain, in England it would not be a big controversy, in the States it is usually not shown on TV without turning green and dying.

But when we showed it in the US we had no problem. Yet after the Rio de Janeiro show (in which the family are robbed, kidnapped and attacked by monkeys) we have been condemned in Brazil. It was not our intention to harm their tourism.

JP: Have you apologized?

Groening. Yes...although I don't think there will be a welcome for the Simpsons team there at the moment. Eleven years ago I was invited to participate in a carnival party with a Bart Simpson float, I felt I didn't want to ruin a Brazilian cultural event with this American cultural icon, so I turned it down.

If they invited me to come again I would be very suspicious ... any time I talk about stuff in the press we are immediately contacted.

JP: One of the key things I wanted to ask you was how much longer The Simpsons could go on. Does it have a shelf life?

Groening: It becomes increasingly difficult as the years go by to keep on not only surprising the audience but surprising ourselves. I think because animation is such an intensely painstaking process it wears people out, and audiences are always looking for surprises.

JP: Really?

Groening: When any character is as stupid as Homer Simpson, it is hard to keep surprising the audience, with his stupidity, because it is now expected.

JP: There are quite a few writers on The Simpsons, aren't there.

Groening: The team has more writers than I can count. Our youngest is 24. I was a kid when The Simpsons started. We have about 20 writers.

JP: How hands-on are you these days?

Groening: I like hanging out with these guys as they are really fun, there are writers and animators who have hung in there from the early days, some writers have been there from the beginning.

JP: How does the process work?

Groening: Everybody throws in jokes and what is great is that it works, I was brought up to believe that art by committee could never work, but it is great that every step of the way on the show there is a slight improvement in refining the show. Sometimes there is a joke that is funny the first time but it is changed 50 times to make it better.

JP: Are you ever over-ruled? How do you feel about that?

Groening: All the time. If I make a reference other people don't get, writers make lots of jokes about TV shows of the 70s, I wasn't watching in that decade, all those jokes culturally elude me and I have references to things they haven't experienced.

JP: Am I right in thinking that you are on your 13th series?

Groening: That's right, we went on the air as a series in 89.

JP: That's been a long time. How much longer will The Simpsons go on for?

Groening: I think we are closer to winding it up. Although what happens generally if we win the Emmy for best animated show, that gives us another couple of years to run it into the ground.

JP: Fox wouldn't be happy to hear you say that, surely?

Groening: The Fox Network basically can't find much else that works....I think Fox will wring every last penny out of the show before they call it a day.

JP: How has making The Simpsons changed over the years?

Groening: It become more expensive as the years go by, we have got actors and writers and animators who want to be as unhappy as everyone else in Hollywood. Everybody needs more...

JP: Talking of Hollywood, what about The Simpsons film? Will it ever happen?

Groening: We have been talking about it. We had lunch once and we threw out some ideas and we are wary of jumping the shark.

JP: What does that mean?

Groening: It is a phrase to describe a TV show. Once it has jumped the shark, it has gone one step removed from its original notion and has lost its way.

JP: Did that happen to South Park?

Groening: No, I thought that film was fantastic.

Jim Pickard: Where does the phrase come from?

Groening: There was an episode of Happy Days, there was an episode in which Fonzy went surfing (water-skiing, according to some fans) and jumped over a shark on his surfboard.

That became a phrase. When a TV show jumps the shark. Some people think the X-Files jumped the shark when they made the movie. We are a little wary of doing a movie.

JP: Presumably Fox would want you to do a movie. It would be a money-spinner.

Groening: Fox's strategy mystifies me, they don't talk to me about what they want, which I find astonishing.

JP: What is happening with Futurama?

Groening: I dunno. There is another season of Futurama but they haven't ordered additional episodes after that. My guess is that we will wind it up next year. I don't think Fox understands the show, they haven't really supported it, but I think it is a worthy companion to The Simpsons and we are really proud of the show, a lot of the people who worked on the Simpsons worked on this show, including the animation house.

JP: In what way did Fox let you down?

Groening: Fox gave it a bad time slot and zero promotion for the last three years.

JP: So couldn't you use The Simpsons as a negotiating tool to keep Futurama running?

Groening: That really wouldn't be my style.

JP: So what would you do instead? Have you got anything else up your sleeve?

Groening: I have got other projects in mind, I think, what I try to do is always keep in mind my relationship with the audience, that is who I really care about.

JP: What sort of projects?

Groening: I have got a couple of other animation TV shows that I am moulding right now, doing some research, and we'll see. It is really difficult to invent a world and sell it and get it off the ground, so I will see if anyone wants them.

JP: Would they be like The Simpsons?

Groening: They will be similar in sensibility to The Simpsons and Futurama. They will look like relatives of the characters, with the mouth overbites.

JP: Could you give me any idea about what sort of programmes they would be, where they would be set?

Groening: (laughs) No I couldn't do that.

JP: There has been a lot said and written about your relationship with Fox...is it difficult?

Groening: I have made them billions of dollars so there is a trace of a smile in their faces when I walk into the room.

JP: Do you mind me asking how much money you have made out of your creations? Are you employed by Fox directly? Do you keep the copyrights?

Groening: It is a combination of salary and cut. In Hollywood everyone has their hands in each others' pay.

JP: But you can't say how much money you've made?

Groening: No.

JP: Do you employ anyone yourself?

Groening: The Simpsons is made by Gracie Films, they do the production. Futurama is made by Curiosity Company. I have 100 per cent ownership (of Curiosity).

JP: Merchandising seems to have got a bit out of hand....

Groening: There was an expansion in the popularity of the show at the very beginning and there were so many deals being made that nobody knew what they were doing and a lot of crazy merchandise got put out on the show.

Now we are much more careful and the quality of stuff, toys and video games, is far superior, and for me it was a lot of fun, I have got two sons of 11 and 13 who I have given a video game to look at and they have offered their annoying pre-adolescent observations...

JP: But you must have got sick of it all...

Groening: There were so many unauthorised T-shirts and books, they couldn't make enough merchandising deals. Now we are much more careful and police our stuff, it is now much more limited.

A lot of the stuff is highly collectable now, I collect my own stuff. I remember one time, I was given this Bart Simpson rubber mask and I put it on over my head, and as I was slipping it over my face, someone yelled: "Don't put it on," and I get a whiff of something toxic. I don't know what it was but watch out...

JP: There seems to be a strange contradiction in the fact that you poke fun at capitalism - with the Mr Burns character, the monorail man, immoral advertisers and everything else - yet The Simpsons has made a fortune for Fox. Are you anti-capitalist?

Groening: I think that there is a lot of corporate irresponsibility...consumers are bombarded with commercials and hype and propaganda and I think it is healthy to provide a counter-message, and it is always funny and the fact is there is a lot of fast food out there and shoddy toys and your newspaper is full of stories about people who provide this stuff.

I looked at Enron and Anderson and thought, I wish I'd thought of it. We are having some fun stuff, we have a lot of episodes in which we mock them, and we have Krusty the Clown running for Congress and we are going to see if we can get some real politicians to endorse him.

JP: Do you find it hard to concentrate on the creative process when you have to manage a company?

Groening: That is strange because I wear two hats, one is as the cranky cartoonist, but I also have to worry about a lot of people and be a manager and boost morale and all that stuff, I am not particularly fond of the stuff which removes me away from the creative side, meetings, business meetings. I have been in enough business meetings to want to get out of them as quickly as possible.

JP: How many people do you employ at the company which makes Futurama? (Curiosity Company)

Groening: The staff are a dozen of post-production people and animators, they don't all work for me, but probably 50 people. There are some times where we employ 100s of people.

JP: Do you find it strange, as an anti-capitalist, working for Rupert Murdoch?

Groening: I have run into him in restaurants and at a conference a few months ago, and we have a good relationship with him. I sent him a baby rattle when his child was born, I got him the most expensive rattle that Tiffany's has got.

JP: I don't think you did, did you?

Groening: No.

JP: You must resent what has happened with Futurama?

Groening: We would like to make a movie, on the internet there is a petition to save the show, we have nothing to do with it. It has 105,000 signatures. There is intense enthusiasm for the show. I liken the audience's enthusiasm to the original following of Star Trek, it is a cult show. I'm sure Fox don't see the wisdom.

JP: There are some real nutters who follow Star Trek. There is even a bar in London for people to dress up as Star Trek characters at weekends....is it like that?

Groening: There are so many websites devoted to the show (Futurama) that I haven't even been to them all. We have our season finale to be broadcast with the original cast of Star Trek, Shatner, Nomoy etc playing themselves. We started at a Star Trek convention in Pasadena and talk about preaching to the converted, it was quite gratifying.

JP: What have been the viewing figures for Futurama?

Groening: When we had a good time slot after The Simpsons, we were number one show for teenagers in all prime time. Now we are on Sunday at 7pm, with no promotion, the ratings are not as good.

JP: What are the actual figures?

Groening: I don't pay much attention to the specifics, people come in and tell me, 'we had a 10 per cent increase,' and I go, (weary voice) 'hmmmm, great'.

JP: Were you a fan of Asterix when you were younger? He seemed to appeal on two levels, just like The Simpsons ...

Groening: Definitely, and I am pleased that my kids are into Asterix at the moment. In The Simpsons we try to reward people for paying attention. There are lots of jokes in there and lots of jokes that kids won't get, I think that is one of the secrets of the show's longevity, kids can grow up and watch the show in repeats once they have read a few books and seen a few classics (films).

JP: Which character are you most like?

Groening: Homer. I like him because he is basically free of guilt, he loves what he loves, hates what he hates with every fibre of his being, but his addiction to heavily salted snacks and unrepentant laziness is something that I certainly relate to.

JP: I can't believe for a second that you're lazy, given your output...

Groening: When I'm not working very hard I am incredibly lazy.

JP: How do you relax?

Groening: I go Scuba diving, I travel, I've just got back, from Tokyo, I go to get away from the stress of LA by going to a high density city (laughs) but I like Japanese culture.

JP: Are you a fan of manga?

Groening: I like some manga, some I have no use for. There are some very crude animal cartoons that never get imported to the US or England which are very crude and silly.

JP: Making cartoons sounds incredibly boring sometimes. When you hear about Nick Park and Aardman, it seems terribly dull...

Groening: The kind of stop motion animation that Nick Park does is extremely meticulous because if they do get the wrong movement, in a shot they have to do the whole thing again. In The Simpsons, if there is a drawing out of sync we still have the drawings, we can re-arrange them.

It is like building a pyramid, in a way it is like being God, creating these living beings out of pen and ink and making them do your bidding and punishing them for their folly.

JP: You say you hate Hollywood. But you spend a lot of time there...

Groening: I will drive into town to my studio and draw my comic strip. I'll be by myself.

JP: Your early cartoon strip, Life in Hell, looks very depressing from what I've seen of it. Have you become happier with age?

Groening: I was very miserable then. There is still incredible angst and stress and things I worry about, that is funny, and I have this secret, I write about my friends.

JP: Do they realise you do that?

Groening; Occasionally they see themselves, but the most egotistical never get it.

JP: You must be approached by many young animators. Do you give them much help? What is your advice to them?

Groening: I get calls every week from cartoonists, and they always say 'I've had a call from a big Hollywood studio, they want to turn my work into a movie or TV show, they always ask, 'can I just take a big bag of money and stay at home and be assured they won't wreck it? I always have to tell them, 'Don't believe in the bag of money until you have it in your hands, and also, they will wreck it."

JP: Do you have much interference from Fox?

Groening: On The Simpsons I now have complete creative freedom. They tried to interfere with Futurama, and I was getting notes from them which contradicted themselves.

The show was getting further away from what I wanted to do. I'd never experienced notes from executives before so at first I thought somebody doesn't know what I'm doing, I tried to address the notes, but when they were contradicting I gave up.

JP: In what way were they contradictory?

Groening: They would write notes like: 'these characters are too mean', I thought, you could say that about The Simpsons but if they were nice we wouldn't be talking today. Anger, hostility, that was the basis for a lot of them.

(Interview interrupted by query from mechanic in Groening's LA home.)

Groening: I'm going to have to go soon.

JP: One last question: will there be an Itchy and Scratchy show?

Groening: Fans ask for it all the time, asking for Itchy and Scratchy's own show. I strung together a montage of the best of Itchy and Scratchy shorts on the show, and I showed them to a theatre audience, and they were laughing really hard for the first three seconds, quickly the laughter got quieter and quieter and finally at the end the audience were just quite thankful the whole thing was over. People think they want it but they don't. Now I really do have to go.

JP: Thanks very much for your time, most appreciated.

Jim Pickard

An article based on this interview first appeared in the Financial Times. Many thanks to Jim Pickard for agreeing to let the Nest republish the full interview here.

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